Monday, March 7, 2011

Politics Gone Stupid

As you have probably noted in my usual blogger babble, I do not often get into the issue of politics, however the ongoing new coming out of Wisconsin and the insane analysis from Fox News (and any other conservatively bent media) has prompted me to come out in full support of the Democratic representatives attempting to thwart Governor Scott Walker's legislation that would strip teachers and public employees of most collective-bargaining rights.
Mostly I am outraged with the conservative political pundits' view that teachers are over paid, have an easy job and should make the sacrifices that the conservatives are unwilling to inflict on the couples earning $250,000,or even the hedge fund managers and bankers that nearly destroyed our economy requiring billions of dollars in government bailouts. Requiring CEOs of the firms that screwed our economy royally to to take a pay cut is out of the question. So let's get the money out of the teachers!!
How much insanity are we going to listen to until we rise up collectively and say enough you morons!
Support the teachers!

On a more light hearted note. Fashion vs firepower? Not a problem in SL if you visit D-Z's Gun Shop.
This is THE place if you want to cut through zombies like a weed cutter on high. The owners are very good people and helped me get the fit and size of my guns to fit my demanding tastes, so this makes it well spent lindens. Great looking guns with all the firepower you could desire and supporting some very good merchants!

These are my new "Mini Redemptions" Dual Chain Gun Revolvers


Ravik said...

Cherry, very rarely do I feel compelled to disagree with you, but.....

What the Democrats are doing is both illegal and against the will of the people of Wisconsin. (Republicans did win a majority of both houses and the Governorship) So, are you opposed to democracy and the rule of law? Do you think that, not only are the majority of people in Wisconsin wrong, but that they have no right to see what they voted for implemented?

Should a union be able to force people who wish to work to join their union? Should union dues be withheld from paychecks without the teachers consent? These are two of the "rights" that union representatives are protesting to keep.

Regarding the myth of teachers being underpaid, please review this table of teachers salaries compiled by:

Per "" Average Teacher Salary is 49,051 (year 2008) Wisconsin
Per "" Average Salary is $40,190 (year 2009) Wisconsin

Moreover, teachers in Wisconsin do NOT contribute to their retirement fund. Nowadays there's not ONE private sector industry that offers that. In the past, companies have, but those companies either went bankrupt or renegotiated their contracts . That sort of benefit is simply unfordable for employers.

Regarding overpaid CEO's. If there is a company out there with a fat cat CEO whose salary and benefits you think are excessive, you have a very simple option to show your disapproval. Don't buy that companies product. I don't have that choice when it comes to teachers salaries. As a taxpayer I'm stuck paying whatever the unions can extort from the politicians. Today there's a breed of politician (Scott Walker and Chris Christy) who are willing to stand up to the unions and say ENOUGH is ENOUGH. I thank god for politicians like these and they give me hope that the steady intrusion and growth of government in our lives can be stopped and reversed.

I listen to Rush Limbaugh on a regular basis, and it's clear from your rant regarding how "conservatives pundit's" defend CEO's and damm Teachers, that he's ONE pundit you do NOT listen too. Before you pass judgment on ALL the conservatives, maybe you ought to listen to him first.

Here's something you should do a little research on. I found this out back in 1970 when I was doing a paper for high school. Government, both federal and state, is growing faster the our country's GDP. I don't remember the exact numbers, but they're out there if you want to go to the trouble to find them. The question you need to ask yourself is: What's going to happen when the Government gets too big for our economy too support? This is a question that's haunted my dreams and kept me awake for decades. I don't personally know what will happen, but I know it won't be pretty.

Thank you for having the patience to read this and I hope it gives you something to think about.

Cherry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cherry said...
By a modest margin, more say they back Wisconsin’s public employee unions rather than the state’s governor in their continuing dispute over collective bargaining rights. Roughly four-in-ten (42%) say they side more with the public employee unions, while 31% say they side more with the governor,

Cherry said...

Aaaaaah, well the myth of the power of the market to contain the CEO salaries? I didn't think you to be that naive. As we saw these firms failed miserably due to their poor marketing and our government bailed them out to the tune of how many billions of dollars and yet many of the CEOs were still granted "bonuses" worth millions of dollars. No one wanting that money back but a teacher earning $50,000 is demonized and being greedy. Why?
The talking heads and government not restricting these. at the very least questionable spending decisions by companies. what could the reason be? Look no further than Fox News itself.
I fully support the majority of the population in Wisconsin. It seems the Governor oppses the will of his constinuency.
The Gallup poll, however, suggests that while reducing benefits and pay for government workers is somewhat unpopular (it is opposed by a 53-44 margin), reducing their collective bargaining rights is much more clearly so (it is opposed 61-33). And Mr. Walker’s budget proposal aims to do some of both.
Of course I oppose the rule of law, when the law is unjust, unfair and unreasonable. I believe this country was founded on opposition to what were felt to be unreasonable and unjust laws and resulted in what was held as acts of insurrection and treason to the laws of the crown. You surely wouldn't argue that every law that every government establishes should be followed blindly just because it is the rule of law?

The "majority rule" is often described as a characteristic feature of democracy, but without governmental or constitutional protections of individual liberties, it is possible for a minority of individuals to be oppressed by the "tyranny of the majority". An essential process in "ideal" representative democracies is competitive elections that are fair both substantively[13] and procedurally.[14] Furthermore, freedom of political expression, freedom of speech, and freedom of the press are considered by some to be essential so that citizens are informed and able to vote in their personal interests. Are not the Democratic Senator expressing their freedom of speech in resistance to what they feel is the unreasonable and unpopular acts of the Governor?

Ravik said...

Well, it has nothing to do with Wisconsin or Unions, but, for the record I am absolutely opposed to government getting involved with private business. I consider the Bush TARP bailout, and the Reagon bailout of Harley Davison to be betrayals.

The simple fact is and remains, Wisconsin does NOT have the money to continue paying what the teachers are taking home. In addition, with Wisconsin's economy mired in a recession, additional taxes will not raise revenue, and will damage the economy even further. Thus, the decision to reduce pay and benefits is the right one.

Regarding the polling data. The Gallop poll you refer to was a sampling of 1000 people across the entire country. That's so much less then one percent, I'm not even going to bother trying to calculate it. Sorry, not impressed. There is a poll that counts, we call them elections. That's where the people who care get to show up and choose who makes these kind of decisions. In less then two years, we'll know the truth about who the Wisconsin people support.

So, it's okay for me to break the law, if I feel the law is unjust. That's very dangerous Cherry. Here in Wichita a man shot Dr Tiller in the head and killed him, because he felt the sin of performing an abortion so great, that it was Okay to break the law in order to prevent what he saw as mass murder of young babies.

We have a system of elections, and laws that allow people to remove bad politicians and replace them with new ones. This allows us to correct mistakes in a peaceful way that most of us can live with. This reduction in power of the Unions is no more irreversible then Obamacare. If it turns out to be a bad decision, new politicians will be elected and those privileges restored. Just as I hope, new politicians in Washington, will reverse and repeal Obamacare before it does any more damage to my healthcare.

You know, I work for a large aerospace company. Over the last 2 years as a result of our current economy, my company has been forced to downsize severely. Half my friends have lost their jobs and I've seen my own pay and benefits cut. Did I and my coworkers protest? No. Did we scream insults and death threats at our management, No. Now I look at these people protesting in Wisconsin. Protesting over a TRIVIAL reduction in benefits and pay and NO LOSS of jobs. Not only do I have no sympathy, I actively dislike them.

Having a Job is a privilege, not a right! If you don't like what you are paid, find a different job. That's what virtually every friend I know who left my company did, and I don't think that teachers should have any more privileges then engineers, machinists or technicians!

Cherry said...

Granted and I do believe that the public employees acknowledge that and are willing to make concessions, but the Governor wants to limit their ability to bargain permanently and is unwilling to negotiate.
Yes I used one poll, but check the others, if you wish. It is not just the Gallup Poll that indicates the unpopularity of this move.
You argue Guilt By Association, just because some people disobey law in heinous and reprehensible ways, it is never correct to oppose a bad law? Rosa parks should have just shut up and gone to the back of the bus. The civil rights movement would be back in the Jim Crow days if it weren't for brave people standing up and opposing bad laws.
We might also remember our government which you place such utter trust in promises one thing and frequently delivers another.
Frequently ignores the rule of law themselves. Illegally detaining indefinitely without due process.
Blind obedience to bad laws allowed use to imprison how many thousands of Japanese American citizens? How many Native Americans died from the legal genocide we inflicted? we went to war with Mexico so we could steal most of the Southwest from them.

The colonists should have just stayed home paid what they felt was an unfair tax. The people in Egypt should have stayed home and and blindly obeyed their "laws".
The cancer or AIDS victim should just suffer rather than making use of marijuana that relieves suffering (at least makes them feel better).
I have watched the news. you might have seen a few of the people that are protesting hurling death threats, but I have seen the vast majority of the people protesting peacefully and rationally.
Just find another job? I today's economy. Yes that make perfect sense. You have studied and trained to be a teacher because you care about the education of our children all those years and now just scrap that and move on. There are plenty of decent jobs for a trained elementary teacher.
That high school math teach can just go to any McDonalds and start over.

Ravik said...

That's a pretty one sided view of a lot of different things. We slaughtered the Indians(President Andrew Jackson Democrat), waged a land war against Mexico for no reason but greed (President Polk Democrat), confined thousands of Japanese without due process of law (President Franklin Roosevelt Democrat)(Mmmmmm, trend?).....

Yep, we are absolutely the worst most awful country on earth, and we should be expunged from history.

(I know, or hope, that you don't really believe that, but, that's what you make it sound like.)

I'd also like to understand why it would be so much easier for me, who spent YEARS studying to be an aircraft designer, to find a new job, then it would be for a math teacher. So much so, that their job gets to be protected, but not mine.

Last, but not least. You haven't even touched on the economics of this.

The government can NOT continue to pay ever increasing wages and benefits to union members. Collective bargaining gives the Union an overwhelming advantage when it comes to negotiations. Are you aware that in the private sector, Unions represent only about 7% labor workforce? That number used to be around 27% or higher, but labor unions became so costly and unproductive their jobs disappeared.

Wonderful peaceful folks, hmmm.... Well my company has a labor union (and those jobs are being moved overseas as fast as possible, sadly) and they are so peaceful that we are trained to maintain security patrols (armed with video cameras) to prevent, or at least document acts of sabotage or violence during a strike.

(Such acts have been collaborated by some of my coworkers who had to endure vicious strikes in the 1970s)

The most damming thing you said though, was that "I trusted Government" Oh Cherry, that hurt... My poor feelings are so bruised. Ow Ow....

No Cherry, I don't trust government, I hate it, fear it and wish it was far smaller then it is!!! But, I would very much rather live by and work through the law, then to have to deal with anarchy.

Final comment. I've read enough history to know that, compared to protests in the past, what we see today is tame. (For which I'm very grateful) Movements like these have been known to degenerate into ugly riots, with murders and mayhem on a broad scale. So, it does seem that we as a country and people have learned at least a little.

Cherry said...

Well I could have added the suspension of Habeas Corpus, by Lincoln and Bush, the House of Un-American Activities Committee spearheaded by Senator Joseph McCarthy and championed by Richard Nixon, all Republicans, Not to even touch on Watergate, the break in of Daniel Ellsberg's office, etc etc.
Trend? Yes political power abused regardless of whether democrat or republican. You thought I was a democrat? I don't believe either party is worthy of my unconditional backing or trust.
Of course I acknowledge that government cannot afford to spend as it has been, I did touch on that, however it is a matter of how to achieve the ends I question.
Attempting to neutralize the power of working people to negotiate fair wages, benefits and conditions, while protecting the rich and the corporations.

Ravik said...

Any "right" that comes at the expense of someone else, is NOT a right. Local taxpayer's are stuck having to pay for all those goodies that the NEA (a nationwide organization) manage to extort from local politicians. Scott Walkers bill merely reduces the advantage that the NEA has to influence politics in Wisconsin.

If you go here:

You'll find out that teacher salaries are not being cut, just their retirement and healthcare benefits. Wages are still going to be negotiable. It's the healthcare and retirement benefits that will be dictated to them for now on.

Given the overall state of our economy, and in the face of all those people who've lost jobs and homes, this looks pretty damm generous to me.

Regarding corporate welfare, I hate that stuff too. But, one sin doesn't justify another!

Cherry said...

It's the healthcare and retirement benefits that will be "dictated to them for now on".
And that scares me.

Ravik said...

As long as it's government dictating to their employees what kind of benefits they are eligible for, that's fine. It's when government dictates to MY COMPANY (private sector, not publicly funded in any way) that I break out in a cold sweat. Which, thanks to Obamacare, i am....

Just Catching Up On Some Reading

I am still around just been busy.